Ban the burqa?

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Freeradical79	Ban the burqa?	Lead	[-]
Cloudbusting! Posts: 5027 (June 23, 2009 16:13:16) Showing (a little devotion) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Tags : None Full Story Here THE FRENCH President, Nicolas Sarkozy, has thrown his weight behind a ban on wearing the burqa in public - before a new parliamentary inquiry has reported on the proposal. His controversial call, contained in a "state of the nation" style speech to the first joint sitting of both houses of parliament in 136 years, appears to have elicited widespread populist support .... he made his personal opposition clear, describing the custom as not "a problem of religion but a problem of the equality and dignity of the female". While freedom of religion was paramount in France, he said, the burqa represented a symbol of the debasement and servitude of women: "The burqa is not welcome on the French Republic's territory. It is not what the French Republic wants for the dignity of women … Yet in my humble opinion, his wife, ex model and often partially clothed Carla Bruni, is a perfect example of the Western version of a burqa clad Islamic female. Not once would you see her in public without a flawless outfit, perfect make up and immaculate hair. Aren't these cover-ups simply a different verion of the burqa? ...there ain't a single night, when I haven't held you tight... ...but its always inside my head, never inside my bed...
Julien		#1	[-]
Running (Up That Hill) Posts: 168 (June 23, 2009 17:06:24) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	This fascist morron speaks about republic when it can help him destroying a bit more this country. Maréchal Sarkozy, that's how I call him. An ultraconservative with an enormous lust for power. You know, I should be more careful : he and his ministres prosecuted people who criticized him on forums, on the base that it was defamation... My oh my, is he Big Brother or something ? Since I am living in Belgium I claim it loud : Sarkozy is the worst thing that happenned to France since 1943. While people would be under the charm of this fake-feminist rethoric, Sarkozy made a constitutionnal reform castrating the Parliament. This country is collapsing. I don't know if he is the cause or the symptom, or a bit both of them. But at least, he's doing things worse and worse. Re-mastering good old albums is like photoshopping Mona Lisa.
Mondo Sinistro		#2	[-]
Cloudbusting! Posts: 5029 (June 23, 2009 17:44:15) Cloudbusting! Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Wow, it's funny how things turn. The way things are going, pretty soon the US may be the only "first world" country that is NOT headed by buffoon with fascist leanings. (Perhaps something like the condition of Europe circa 1938.)
Julien		#3	[-]
Running (Up That Hill) Posts: 169 (June 23, 2009 17:49:18) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	You're right Mondo Sinistro, and that is why I take a vicious pleasure in shutting up the mouth of every americanophobe I meet in Europe. It would take centuries before a non-white got elected as head of state or government in Europe. Sarkozy in France, Berlusconi in Italy... And if the federal level is slightly sober in Belgium, let's say the elections in the federated Flanders are a shame as well : 15% for an openly neofascist party, 13% for a nationalist party, almost 8% for a populist party... it means 35% votes for the hardline righ conservative... My oh my, is it still possible to get asylum in the United States ? Re-mastering good old albums is like photoshopping Mona Lisa.
Mondo Sinistro		#4	[-]
Cloudbusting! Posts: 5030 (June 23, 2009 18:59:15) Cloudbusting! Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Heehee, I wouldn't be in too big a hurry just yet...at least wait and see how the health care debate plays out here in Congress this year. It's pretty hot and heavy right now.
Traxtv		#5	[-]
Cloudbusting! Posts: 4309 (June 24, 2009 09:11:15) Cloudbusting! Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	I am torn on this. As a liberal of course freedom including religious and cultural freedom should be protected. As a feminist I have problems with the notion of women covering the body. However, I have a lack of knoweledge about the wearing of hijab or buqa, some women find it liberating int he sense that they are not subject to unwanted male attention. I am still thinking these things through. ================== Founder of the very comfortable Red Shoes club with: Snappy, Reedyrivergirl,Super diva Donna and Kerry. Plus Remebergenie knows a good brogue! ------------------ My bottom has never been the same since Bournemouth.
Julien		#6	[-]
Running (Up That Hill) Posts: 174 (June 24, 2009 09:55:31) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Anyway, Sarkozy didn't change anything : it's been decades since France forbade any "blatant religious symbols" in public places. I'm all against burkas and every oppression of the body - according to me, every woman should have the right to cross the street almost naked if she wants, and no one has the right to annoy them for this reason. In Stockholm, I've noticed how girls dresses in a sexy way without being bothered, and this country is really the best for women rights. But the only result of the French hardline position is : now muslim girls considers their scarves as a symbol of rebellion against the system ! Many girls who wouldn't have wore a scarf does it on purpose, just to affirm their rights to be what they want. Education is the only solution. If you take time & efforts & money to educate both men & women, then in the end nobody needs scarves anymore. But how to tell this to a Maréchal who cuts into education budget in favour of police forces and lower taxes for the wealthiest... Re-mastering good old albums is like photoshopping Mona Lisa.
johnmorango2		#7	[-]
Cloudbusting! Posts: 4094 (June 24, 2009 12:05:48) Running (Up That Hill) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Traxtv wrote: I am torn on this. As a liberal of course freedom including religious and cultural freedom should be protected. As a feminist I have problems with the notion of women covering the body. However, I have a lack of knoweledge about the wearing of hijab or buqa, some women find it liberating int he sense that they are not subject to unwanted male attention. I am still thinking these things through. Tracy I'm with you. Plus as Shane said "Aren't these cover-ups simply a different verion of the burqa?" There are layers here. It's not a simple issue. I think choice is part of it. If a woman chooses to wear it the issue is very different from her being forced to wear it. But only if she chooses because she wants to rather than feeling compelled to. I think a blanket ban is too simplistic. John The Dreaming is Kate's 'Marmite' album.
Ronstadtophile		#8	[-]
Running (Up That Hill) Posts: 558 (June 24, 2009 12:20:00) Running (Up That Hill) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	It could never be enforced in public. But, as a centre-left person myself I wholeheartedly agree with it being banned in schools and the work place. x If memories were like the leaves that fall. The wind would have blown them from my mind.
DINGER		#9	[-]
Showing (a little devotion) Posts: 1617 (June 24, 2009 13:41:02) Showing (a little devotion) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	I'm agreeing with Shane and John on this. Every culture has its way of oppressing women by dictating acceptable clothing; seems the "western world" does it by making us overly focus on our sex appeal to men whereas Islamic fundamentalists become preoccupied with making us invisible. Either tactic prevents women from exercising meaningful public power because their basic ability to make choices has been hampered. So as long as a woman chooses a particular mode of dress and feels comfortable enough to pursue power in it, that should be the overriding concern. To that end, I see this more as an issue of liberalism than feminism. It happens to be the dress of women, but the root problem is someone's ability to make and act upon a personal decision.
Helen Bywater		#10	[-]
Running (Up That Hill) Posts: 34 (June 24, 2009 14:57:06) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	It should be a matter of personal choice, but if women choose to wear the burqa we shouldn't have to make too many allowances for them in predominantly non-Muslim countries. My partner was on a bus recently, when a woman in a burqa got on and showed a bus pass. The driver made a big show of peering at her and examining the picture on the pass, to see if it was the same person. It was hilarious, but she could have been sharing the pass with all her friends. I don't think that's acceptable. You came to me in a dream, and I said, "We can't go on meeting like this".
Mike Wade		#11	[-]
Cloudbusting! Posts: 10039 (June 30, 2009 17:59:41) Reaching (Out) Moderator Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	What Traxy said. Complicated one. Much more simplistically, am I the only one who read this as "ban the burger"?
Helen Bywater		#12	[-]
Running (Up That Hill) Posts: 62 (June 30, 2009 18:11:25) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Hi Mike, I also thought it was a misspelling of burger for a while, so I refrained from commenting on such a contentious issue. Helen You came to me in a dream, and I said, "We can't go on meeting like this".
samphire hoe		#13	[-]
Showing (a little devotion) Posts: 804 (June 30, 2009 23:34:37) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	No ban, other than when the face should be seen in entirety for education, healthcare, so called security and so on. Any enforcement should be aimed at those who coerce women into wearing the burqa. I don't particularly like seeing human beings covered from head to foot walking down the street, but I don't go for blokes eating in restaurants / cafes with their shirts off, women on the street barely clad either. My problem though, not theirs'. Even after all this time The sun never says to the earth, "You owe me." Look what happens with a Love like that! -It lights the whole Sky. (Hafiz)
Rokateman		#14	[-]
Showing (a little devotion) Posts: 1008 (July 1, 2009 09:02:44) Running (Up That Hill) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	^^^^^^^^ I agree with Mike & HB in that, still keep thinking this is Ban The Burger I like in a town with a large Muslim Asian population so see quite a few ladies in The Burkha but thankfully many more with just their head covered. Ladies having their head covered is fine as its part of their religion). t IMO covereing the complete face is wrong as its a cultural rather than religeous statement, not being mentioned in the Koran. To me the Burkha in the UK is the equivalent of a 'European' lady walking down a Saudi Arabian high street in a bikini .. which just wouldn't happen I'm straight & into Kate ... so are probably next ... well I am paranoid Marvyn & Dougal rule OK Last Edited By: Rokateman July 1, 2009 09:12:23. Edited 1 times.
johnmorango2		#15	[-]
Cloudbusting! Posts: 4113 (July 1, 2009 11:35:53) Running (Up That Hill) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	I was in Dubai couple of years ago and felt that wearuing shorts was not appropriate despite the temperature. I was shocked to see someone in the breakfast area wearing a bikini top and skimpy denim cutoffs. Inapropriate for a hotel in Australia let alome the Middle East! I think it's about cultural sensitivity. Wearing a full burkha in a traditional setting is a bit different to wearing it in central London or Paris. It's about compromise. Refusing to compromise to fit your surroundings is terribly arrogant. John The Dreaming is Kate's 'Marmite' album.
Helen Bywater		#16	[-]
Running (Up That Hill) Posts: 67 (July 1, 2009 13:39:20) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	^ Hear hear, John! What happened to the old adage "When in Rome..."? Some people behave disgracefully when they're abroad, and in this country it feels as if we're expected to bend over backwards to accommodate people, some of whom have no respect for our way of life or intention of trying to integrate. You came to me in a dream, and I said, "We can't go on meeting like this".
StevenEdmondson		#17	[-]
Running (Up That Hill) Posts: 631 (July 1, 2009 19:29:36) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Far as I'm concerned you're in the wrong if you're telling people what to wear, whether it's their husbands/family/religious community telling them to wear the thing or the state telling them to take it off. Unlike some other regions, until now in France and the UK, (yes, UK, Straw and (I think) Harman have said very, very similar things about Burqas and veils and so on), we've had a choice, and it's that element of choice that really should be celebrated.
Mondo Sinistro		#18	[-]
Cloudbusting! Posts: 5043 (July 1, 2009 20:11:01) Cloudbusting! Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	If you really want to work up into a lather about privacy issues and the like, you can find plenty to go over in that recent US federal (was it the Supreme Court?) decision about some girl in a school who was subjected to a strip search and a bit of other bother. I think the justices where 8 to 1 in favor of the girl--when I heard it on the radio, they were saying how unusual it was to have such a lopsided margin in that type of case. I think minors get subjected to a lot of a certain type of 5h1t that would never prevail with adults--schools will sometimes dock students on their grades for certain things, or not allow them to graduate, whereas in the workplace you pretty much have to fork over wages earned--you can fire your workers, but you can't take back what they've earned fair and square. And it's generally pretty damn hard to strip search them, even if you do think they have drugs on them.

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